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A group of students and I have designed, funded
and built an alternative energy unit. This unit
consists of a solar cell and a wind generator
(PMG). We are attmpting to determine which
method of alternative enregy production is best
for our local area. We are trying to measure the
voltage produced by each device, along with a
voltage drop across a shunt resistor to
calculated the amperage from by generators. With
these two quantities we are able to calculate the
power each produces. We are using Vernier
Softwares LabPros and LoggerPro 3.4 on a laptop
PC. Our problem is that when more than one
voltage probe is connected, the readings that are
recorded are bogus. When only one voltage
detector is connected, the readings are spot-on.
We have worked with Vernier and tried several
different voltage probes. The same results. We
believe the problem is the common connection
through the LabPros. There is no one negative
ground. How should we change our detection
circuit to get good readings. Please see our
website for pictures and details. URL:
http://www.spring-
lake.k12.mi.us/AltEnergy/AlternativeEnergyIndex.h
tml. Thank you for your help.
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Question Date: 2007-05-24 | | Answer 1:
It's difficult to tell what the issues are
without seeing a schematic of your circuits.
First, if you have both generators hooked up to
each other, I would take that apart and test each
separately. Also, if you are charging any
batteries or capacitors or anything, I would
remove those and just try to make the circuit as
simple as possible with an equivalent resistor (to
your complete circuit), shunt resistor, and single
generator. For the purposes of finding out how
much energy you'll generate, this is actually a
pretty good approximation. If it's still giving
you bogus results with such a simple setup then I
can't think of anything else to do about it, save
it being a Vernier hardware issue. I also didn't
quite understand what you meant by "there is no
one negative ground." Granted electronics is more
my hobby than my expertise, so hopefully someone
can provide a better answer for you. If the
first setup tests out fine, then I would slowly
reconnect components to your circuit until you can
identify the step that kills your measurement. I
realize that this is kind of a blind test, but
without more information, I can't think of
anything else to do. If no-one else gives
you a better answer, then maybe you can email
ScienceLine with more detail about your setup and
perhaps I can help. But some people that are more
familiar with electronics issues may be able to
give you a straight answer with the level of
description you've provided. | | Answer 2:
I looked at the site to see your test setup,
but I could not find a schematic of your test
setup. (It does look like a fun project; you might
try putting some galvanized sheet metal on the
sides of the solar panels to increase the output
and the acceptance angle of light, if you aren't
going to track the sun. Since a lot of the light
conversion in Si is near infrared, the reflectors
don't need to be too good, as long as the cells
don't get too hot.) I am also guessing that
you have one of two problems: 1. Common ground
offsets from the sensors. 2. Induced ground
loop in either the sensor or the connection to the
PC. Both issues cause problems in similar
ways, and there are several solutions. First,
where does the power to run the sensor come from?
If it is a battery in the sensor, problem 1 is not
your issue unless there is a common ground from
the data to one side of the sensor. If it comes
from the PC -- the problem gets more
interesting.This is especially true if you have
connections of any sort between the generators --
for example a common battery. Most data loggers
use inexpensive A/D chips developed originally for
hand multi-meters or panel displays -- these
require decoupled power on their inputs versus
their measurement terminals. The second kind
of problem comes from current coupled into your
wires from nearby EM sources like power wiring,
transformers, and overhead wiring. It is amazing
how much current is coupled in this way -- my
grandfather used to run drainage pumps by hooking
to his barbed wire fences (which ran parallel to
overhead power lines). The other side was the
local irrigation pipe. My lab bench has a grounded
sheet of steel under the Formica top, specifically
to reduce the coupling-- yet I still get 100-400mV
AC from 2' test leads. Since the cables you ran to
the sensors are probably twisted and run on a
common path, they couple to the same fields -- so
you won't see a problem with 1 cable. However,
running two can cause havoc, from power coupled
into the sensors (if they have a virtual ground,
the voltage will show up on the measured side), or
coupled into the PC. (The PC can be destroyed this
way --). In very high field areas like power
substations, the best solution is wireless
connections between the sensors and the
logger. To see what is going on, first use
an inexpensive multi-meter to measure the AC
voltage at the PC from the "ground" connections.
Also look for DC offsets here -- that is a
tell-tale of problem 1. Since these are 'data'
lines, they should not be effected by connecting 1
of them, unless the grounds are coupling power.
There is a lot of information on the
'ground loop' problem on the net.Again, I don't
know the format of your data cables, but there are
relatively cheap isolating repeaters for most data
formats -- i.e. USB, serial, parallel, 488... As a
last tip -- don't make the assumption that you can
ground out the currents -- it is usually easier to
introduce a resistor or other isolator as the
currents are proportional to the flux and inverse
to the resistance. A bigger cable is usually a
bigger problem. Hope this helps | | Answer 3:
I'm an electrical engineer who wires and fixes
lab equipment, so I can help. I suspect you're on
the right track, that there's a problem with a
shared ground connection. Can you send me a
diagram for how things are connected and how you
are measuring your voltages? In particular, I
would need to know which connections are tied to
each other, and also which pieces have some
connection to ground. If you could label the
voltages you measure at each point, that would
very helpful as well.. | | Answer 4:
I can't access your link, and unfortunately,
without knowing more of the setup (and not being
an electrician), I can't tell you what the problem
is, although it sounds to me like the two voltages
are interfering with each-other in some
way. I CAN tell you, however, that the
result of your experiment is going to depend on a
number of factors other than location, among these
things like time of year and the angle of your
solar panel. For instance, does your windmill
track the prevailing wind direction in order to
get the most efficiency possible? Do your solar
panels track the sun? Are you doing this in summer
(more light) or winter (more wind)? By"location",
do you include things like altitude, as there is
going to be more wind at higher elevations? | | Answer 5:
If you are using the differential voltage
probes from Vernier, then I don't know what is
causing the problem. However, if you are
using the non-differential voltage probe, then I
would guess that it is an issue of the common
connection of the probes shorting out part of the
circuit. The issue is described in the following
technical note from Vernier's web site: vernierWhen
you measure with two or more voltage probes, and
one of the terminals of a voltage probe is
grounded (as is the case with this probe,
according to the Vernier web site), you need to be
careful with those ground contacts of the voltage
probes. Make sure that the ground contacts of all
of the probes are connected to the same point in
the circuit. Please feel free to follow up
if this doesn't solve the problem. Click Here to return to the search form.
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